Curse

Plakband · Jun 13, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Hi, i tried to make a new migraine build, one which works well in pvp and pve.

Fast casting: 8+1
illusion magic: 12+1+3
inspiration magic: 10+1

Images of remorse
Conjure phantasm
Accumulated Pain
Migraine
Illusion of Pain
Mantra of persistance
Power Drain
Resurrect

So basicaly, images of remorse and conjure phantasm are spamable, but if i only target one guy, i'll throw in migraine and illusion of paine after them. MoP is great for Illusion of Pain because there's always the risk of healing the target when it ends. So that's why i always wait with IoP.

Power Drain is the only energy management atm, but i'm thinking that i should throw in another spell in for better management. Thing is, this is a really energy demanding build, but i think the IoP risk will be greater if i remove a degen skill.

Still Migraine is the first skill to go, with only -3 (compared to the rest) and double casting time, which isn't that important, only with power drain. Other candidate can be accumulated pain, but i don't know how much damage it fully does with deep wound.

Can anyone comment/help on this build?

Bowerbank · Jun 13, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Conjure phantasm is weak after lvl 10 will rarely get used try nightmare

Avarre · Jun 13, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

You only have one interrupt, which means you'll need to be teamed with someone who can interrupt as well to be effective. Power return would fit nicely, instead of perhaps IoP. Distortion and drain enchant would also be great to have, to mess up CoP and to kite. You're using MoP over Dist, but perhaps dropping conjure (since IoR is 17~ seconds with MoP) and using Migrane+ior for AP.

As for PvP, I liked using diversion with migrane. Just because. It allows you a little more casterhate to toss around, since you can't monitor everyone at once

(and because interrupting RoF is a pain, esp with only 1 interrupt to try with. So divert!).

Conjure Nightmare is worse. 25energy for 8 degen, gg. Half your energy gone for less benefit than phantasm + ior. Plus with all the degen, you don't need -8 at once.

frickaline · Jun 13, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Without enchantment removal, I don't see how you will retain Migraine on any decent boonprot monk. (Perhaps you only plan to target the WoH targets with this though)

Plakband · Jun 13, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

alright, good ideas from all of you. So what about this:

Recurring insecurity
Images of remorse
accumulated pain
Illusion of pain
Mantra of persistance
Drain enchantment
Power drain
Resurrect

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 13, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

...we powerblock all the WoH monks silly!
Not sure you need two sources of deep wound.
If PvP, drop ressurect for a res signet.
If PvE, consider dropping for rebirth.
Drop Conjure for some interrupt
Drop MoP for interrupt
Consider dropping DW (both) for interrupt
Drain enchantment would be powerful

You will get torn to shreads by enemy warriors, rangers, and assassins. Distortion or a slow hex would be advisable.

Plakband · Jun 13, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

...we powerblock all the WoH monks silly!
Not sure you need two sources of deep wound.
If PvP, drop ressurect for a res signet.
If PvE, consider dropping for rebirth.
Drop Conjure for some interrupt
Drop MoP for interrupt
Consider dropping DW (both) for interrupt
Drain enchantment would be powerful

You will get torn to shreads by enemy warriors, rangers, and assassins. Distortion or a slow hex would be advisable.

What's the second source of deep wound?

And isn't this basically a whole other kind of build?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 13, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plakband

What's the second source of deep wound?

And isn't this basically a whole other kind of build?

Sorry was thinking of a different factions skill when I saw "Illusion of Pain"
Somewhat yes, but that is what migraine typically excells at. Failure to do that is, not only different, but most often ineffective. In the build you have posted migraine would best be replaced with crippling anguish, or energy drain as the "easily to interrupt target clause" is not being used to full, or any, effect.

Sab · Jun 13, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I don't recommend Illusion of Pain in PvP or PvE, it's just more trouble than it's worth. Long casting time, long recharge and the problem of it getting removed prematurely all goes against this spell. I suggest replacing IoP in your Migraine build with Power Return. After all, there's not much point Migraining a monk if you can only interrupt once every 25 seconds.

The rest looks pretty solid. Consider dropping Accumulated Pain for something else, since in PvP you'll can rely on others to cause the Deep Wound (with Eviscerate, Gash etc.), or in PvE, the recharge kills its usefulness. Drain Enchantment would work nicely here.

IMO Recurring Insecurity is only good when used in conjunction with Soul Barbs (and a hex spammer build). As degen, it's pretty poor compared to the other Illusion degen skills, considering it's an elite. Not to mention that IoR + CP already puts your target at -9 pips, and those two skills are spammable, while RI is not.

frickaline · Jun 13, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plakband

alright, good ideas from all of you. So what about this:

Recurring insecurity
Images of remorse
accumulated pain
Illusion of pain
Mantra of persistance
Drain enchantment
Power drain
Resurrect

wait a sec *looks around* ... what happened to migraine ?

I mean I guess the question here is are you wanting to put together an interrupt/shutdown build with which to target healers or were you putting together a degen build to target at non-healers?

I'll tell you that if you are trying to target monks, particularly any that might carry CoP (most decent boonprots will), accumulated pain will serve no purpose. When they contemplate your hexes off, the condition will be removed with no additional impact to the healer. Its a waste of your time in my opinion.

My strategy against healers is usually to remove energy and make them useless, then provide just a bit of degen so they can't live. Power leak, power drain, power return, migraine, phantasm, drain and shatter enchant are all things I'd consider bringing if I think I might target a boonie with a migraine build. With migraine and phant you get pretty decent degen, and with decent enchant removal, any more is a waste imo.

Plakband · Jun 13, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

wait a sec *looks around* ... what happened to migraine ?

was just trying something else, tried it out, and seems it isn't that great a skill

atm i've only tried these builds in pve. Haven't been playing pvp lately. I did get the feeling that with using degen on a monk, there isn't that much strain on him as with a e-drain build. While constanly degenerating his hp, monks only need to use 1 or 2 skills to heal themselves or remove a hex. (in addition to what frickaline says)

i've been thinking about the mantra of resolve and IoP combo. While it does lenghten the duration of al the skills (in my case 79%), it stills is 25e, while with conj phantasm and IoR it only takes 15 to get a no risk-almost-as-good-as-IoP set of hexes. Recasting them is as good as MoR, only with 100% duration instead of 79%. Can be nice in pve against juggernauts or siege turtles...

So that means the builds posted by me are usefull for pve, but unoptimised/unbalanced for pvp.

frickaline · Jun 13, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

oooh pve .... in that case, I'd forget migraine and insecurity and go straight for clumsiness, ineptitude, IoR. Forget the monks and take out those wars. (although sadly, this is even a good monk killer in pve since they are so dumb :P ....)

Siren · Jun 13, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Conjure Nightmare is worse. 25energy for 8 degen, gg. Half your energy gone for less benefit than phantasm + ior. Plus with all the degen, you don't need -8 at once.

Incidentally, it's a weird skill in general. I have a feeling it's designed to be a single target degen hex in a degen build. I've recently tested it with Auspicious Incantation, and I'm just about convinced those two skills were designed to be used together. They essentially balance each other out (though 30 second recharges on both of them suck). A.Incant turns the 25E cost of Conjure Nightmare into an energy gain of 44E. So Nightmare becomes free, basically, provided you have the initial 25E investment available.

The more I play with it, the more I'm both impressed by it, and disappointed with it. I'm impressed with it because it's pretty nuts e-management (and I can't think of any e-management that comes close to that type of return), it's based on an attribute line combination that has a lot of nice degen options, and you can basically get -8 degen for free...

On the other hand, you can save the 25E by using Glyph of Energy. Though you're blowing an Elite slot there. Or you'd just look at 8 degen as a single hex and think "meh."

However, once I got my rhythm down using Nightmare/A.Incant, Phantasm/Phantom Pain on a second target, in addition to Ethereal Burden on a third, I found it very, very easy to spread degen around...especially using Mantra of Recovery. Very interesting skill, Conjure Nightmare is. Not sure how widely viable it'd be, but for isolated situations, holy fecking schnikies it's fun as hell. lol

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 13, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

If I was going to use AI; I would use it with arcane echo ...then powerblock...twice

Avarre · Jun 14, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Incidentally, it's a weird skill in general. I have a feeling it's designed to be a single target degen hex in a degen build. I've recently tested it with Auspicious Incantation, and I'm just about convinced those two skills were designed to be used together. They essentially balance each other out (though 30 second recharges on both of them suck). A.Incant turns the 25E cost of Conjure Nightmare into an energy gain of 44E. So Nightmare becomes free, basically, provided you have the initial 25E investment available.

The more I play with it, the more I'm both impressed by it, and disappointed with it. I'm impressed with it because it's pretty nuts e-management (and I can't think of any e-management that comes close to that type of return), it's based on an attribute line combination that has a lot of nice degen options, and you can basically get -8 degen for free...

On the other hand, you can save the 25E by using Glyph of Energy. Though you're blowing an Elite slot there. Or you'd just look at 8 degen as a single hex and think "meh."

However, once I got my rhythm down using Nightmare/A.Incant, Phantasm/Phantom Pain on a second target, in addition to Ethereal Burden on a third, I found it very, very easy to spread degen around...especially using Mantra of Recovery. Very interesting skill, Conjure Nightmare is. Not sure how widely viable it'd be, but for isolated situations, holy fecking schnikies it's fun as hell. lol

I feel like running 4 illu mesmers in HA with persistance, Glyph of lesser energy, migrane/sharedburden, and conjure nightmare. 10 degen on 4 casters within a few seconds, stack some hexes on top... wheee!

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 14, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Wastrel's still out damages 10 degen...wheee!
=p
^_~
=D
*pokes Avarre to see him explode on a "I HATE WASTREL'S WORRY" rant*

Avarre · Jun 14, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Wastrel's outdamages 10 degen if you have really high dom and your opponent never uses any skills at all, and only if you apply it precisely on timing. It fails.

SnipiousMax · Jun 14, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

....your opponent never uses any skills at all...

We were having a discussion earlier in the warrior forum and ubermancer brought up how skills are for noobs!

Avarre · Jun 14, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Hmm, that's true. I did once do Ice Caves mission, while naked in game, with an empty skillbar. (It was LuxA's idea). I didn't really notice any higher difficulty, tbh.

Evilsod · Jun 14, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Hmm, that's true. I did once do Ice Caves mission, while naked in game, with an empty skillbar. (It was LuxA's idea). I didn't really notice any higher difficulty, tbh.

Is that your next challenge once you've successfully done the Deep with Mesmers? Do the Deep with naked Mesmers

?